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TOPIC: An Update on New Music from WPC

An Update on New Music from WPC 1 year 1 month ago #129491

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My copy just arrived. First impressions coming in later... :billy
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An Update on New Music from WPC 1 year 1 month ago #129492

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Just listened to the album start to finish.

Essentially BC's version of Let It Come Down.

I had issues with both Oceania and Monuments but this on a whole other level.

I guess being a solo album it won't be scrutinized as much.

It sounds similar to American Gothic, the 4 song EP from 2008. That EP had 2 Great songs on it (Rose March and Sunkissed) and two average songs (Again Again Again, Pox).

There are songs on Ogilala that are better than Pox and Again Again Again but no songs that are better than Sunkissed or Rose March. Not even close.

I'm not going to compare it too much to SP music because that would be shortchanging it given he's using his solo name. However it can be fairly compared to The Future Embrace which absolutely SLAUGHTERS this album from start to finish.

Also, Steven Wilson is a thing in 2017.

William Patrick Corgan is gay
Last Edit: 1 year 1 month ago by frankB.
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An Update on New Music from WPC 1 year 1 month ago #129493

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Au contraire, Frankie! :billy
My opinion on Ogilala couldn't be more of a polar opposite to yours.

I love the stripped-down singer/songwrtier sound of piano, acoustic guitars and mellotron.
The songs are all to the point, none of them lasts longer than 4 minutes for a reason; this album is all about Billy finally rediscovering what his greatest ability is: Writing songs.
This is plain, and simple songwriting without any sugar-coarting, much like his Machina acoustic demos or his Adore demos; it's none but the basic essence of songs themselves.
Much like in the acoustic guitar version of Thru The Eyes Of Ruby from the Mellon Collie box set, his genius as a songwriter truly shines here.
Away are any chains, restrains, the Smashing Pumpkins trademark and the constraints to deliver a rockstar album.
Not every track might be gold but this is the therapy Billy's songwriting needed at this point.
At least I could enjoy this album from start to finish.
I've listened to Ogilala three times in a row and it only got better each time.

Compared to that, Wilson's To The Bone only got worse with each listen.
That one was a 5/10, maybe 6/10 when I got it and now it's seriously a 2/10 for it's hardly compromised of anything but the lamest excuses for a man as gifted and talented as Wilson to play shoddy pop music, to copy-cat himself poorly and to roll out songs for 8-10 minutes which only should last 2-3 minutes, just because he's supposed to be "proggy".
Even the train wreck that was The Incident was better.
At least it had a great bonus EP.

Ogilala gets this right on the other hand; songs are just songs, nothing else, Billy didn't feel the need to stroke his ding-dong while recording some simple songs...he stood honest.
Ogilala is nothing but a properly released "demo selection" by the man and that said, I'd relisten to demos on Judas O and Aeroplane any time instead of forcing myself through Monuments To An Elegy again.
To me, it's the essence of his songwriting.
Ogilala is a mature and brave step into the right direction.
Greater, bigger and better arranged things may come in the future but for now, he needed this album to pull himself out of any expectations, rockstar bullshit and the overwhelming Smashing Pumpkins brand.
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An Update on New Music from WPC 1 year 1 month ago #129494

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Wow that's an interesting take Don. I'm open to the album getting better on relistens but I'm not sure Ogilala has anywhere to go.

I guess it shouldn't be a surprise we disagree, given we disagree about To The Bone, The Incident, Zeitgeist etc.

Maybe with the right mindset I'll be able to appreciate Ogilala. The thing is though I can't figure out which songs are going to be the ones that lift for me. Outside the two singles and the first song is piano as well, they're all acoustic folk ballads. There was no hook there for me in any of them, no point where I was like, wow this is good.

WPC's image now has completely changed from what it used to be. Now he's this cheery / new age "spiritual" old geezer out plucking away another diddy on his acoustic guitar in his herbal teahouse. He's making the music that comes the easiest to him, it's seriously so lazy. In five years he'll be doing gigs in his living room so he doesn't even have to leave the couch.

Musically you listen to Oceania and Monuments and you can point out - this is wrong, this wrong, you should do this better, fix this over here, put more effort into this aspect. But with Ogilala it's just a NO from me. A lot of talented musicians from the 80s and 90s completely lost their talent and ability to make good albums - Pearl Jam, U2, Arcade Fire come to mind. Slowly but surely Ogilala signifies WPC finally giving up and joining those ranks.
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An Update on New Music from WPC 1 year 1 month ago #129495

frankB wrote:
It sounds similar to American Gothic, the 4 song EP from 2008. That EP had 2 Great songs on it (Rose March and Sunkissed) and two average songs (Again Again Again, Pox).

There are songs on Ogilala that are better than Pox and Again Again Again but no songs that are better than Sunkissed or Rose March. Not even close.

That's probably the perfect way to sum this album up in a few sentences (well, for a Pumpkins fan).

I thought Zowie was quite a promising start, but way before the album finished I was getting a bit tired of it. And it's a fairly short album. I love acoustic albums too, but I would much rather listen to the likes of Joey Cape or Nikola Sarcevic, or the acoustic demos from Adore - they're all leagues ahead of this album, for me.

I don't want to be too harsh. No songs made me cringe - which is a big improvement after the wuss-rock / synth-fest of Monuments. This stripped back approach is at least more tolerable. I might try and give this album more listens one day, but at the moment I have much better things to listen to (well, things that I like better, it is all subjective, of course).

I really don't see any genius in the simplicity of these songs, I would think any remotely competent singer/guitarist could make something of this standard. There's nothing new and it lacks hooks.
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An Update on New Music from WPC 1 year 1 month ago #129496

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Excellent interview with Billy, might very well be the best I've ever read..unfortunately it's in German, but translate is your friend, so here's the English version for you:

translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=...6&edit-text=&act=url
Last Edit: 1 year 1 month ago by DON.
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An Update on New Music from WPC 1 year 1 month ago #129497

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And that's the other side of the coin, I guess...man, Billy probably really needs some treatment :( :

yournewswire.com/billy-corgan-shapeshifting-reptilians/
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An Update on New Music from WPC 1 year 1 month ago #129498

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DON wrote:
And that's the other side of the coin, I guess...man, Billy probably really needs some treatment :( :

yournewswire.com/billy-corgan-shapeshifting-reptilians/

Most interesting BC news since 2005.
Destroy the mind - destroy the body - but you cannot destroy the heart
Last Edit: 1 year 1 month ago by glass.
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An Update on New Music from WPC 1 year 1 month ago #129499

DON wrote:
And that's the other side of the coin, I guess...man, Billy probably really needs some treatment :( :

yournewswire.com/billy-corgan-shapeshifting-reptilians/

HAHAHA :D

New BC concept album about reptile demons on the way?

I can't even be bothered to check if that's one of the fake/joke news websites. It is very funny though.
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An Update on New Music from WPC 1 year 1 month ago #129500

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There's a recording of the interview so obviously real. I for one believe him. The rich and famous will see and hear things hidden from the public eye. The Reptilians are hardly an original concept.
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An Update on New Music from WPC 1 year 1 month ago #129501

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Personally I think, hallucinations that severe could be a sign of schizophrenia.
I suppose Billy felt very bad being near that label boss, indeed, and that feeling triggered everything.
Maybe Billy heard of that reptilian conspiracy before, so it naturally became his hallucination.
Even though I'm currently loving Ogilala to death (my album of the year so far), I'm concerned about Billy's mental health.
Last Edit: 1 year 1 month ago by DON.
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An Update on New Music from WPC 1 year 1 month ago #129502

When did he claim to see this reptile thing though? I presume it was a while ago? Fun story anyway.

As for Billy's mental health...

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An Update on New Music from WPC 1 year 1 month ago #129503

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Billy really is the grandmaster of covering, he makes even this abomination sound like a real song.
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An Update on New Music from WPC 1 year 1 month ago #129504

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epitome wrote:
When did he claim to see this reptile thing though? I presume it was a while ago? Fun story anyway.

As for Billy's mental health...



No, he made the claim last week on the Howard Stern show. Obviously he's recounting something that happened many years ago. I'm sure his mental health is fine. Do you guy's seriously forget who this guy is right now? He's Mr. New Age Herbal Tea. I read the interview Don posted - he's completely confused about what music he should be making. All that stuff about not having confidence ... The truth is coming out. Think about it. Adore = Miss. Machina = Bigger Miss. Zwan = Didn't work. Solo 2005 = OK but everyone still wants SP. Zeitgeist = Failure. Teargarden = Fuck up. Oceania = Let Down. Monuments = Critically smashed. He's been losing at this for two decades, never reclaiming the original turf he took with Siamese Dream and Mellon Collie. It's never been just "about the music" for him. He's trying to be successful and it's not working. That would depress anyone, which is why we hear him doing a Wrecking Ball cover. He probably watches that video and tries to envision his music more like it. He wants her success.

But that has nothing to do with seeing evil lizard people who no doubt exist among us. If you think aliens are make believe, just think about how big the universe is and how little you actually know about it.
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An Update on New Music from WPC 1 year 1 month ago #129505

I think BC was suggesting the reptile things were demons rather than aliens. It seems odd that demons would want to loiter around as record executives. Although it would be even weirder if aliens travelled here from light years away just to be record executives :D
Not much for us to worry about anyway, as if all they want to do is to hassle some overpaid musicians it won't be of much concern to us ;)

But yeah, Billy's success hasn't been very good for a while. I still haven't been able to listen to Ogilala more than once, so I can't claim to have an expert opinion on it, but I'll still have to go with my initial impression which was that it was fairly average. Like, if it wasn't Billy Corgan's name to it, no one would even listen to the whole thing. Again, not to say that it's bad, but there's so much music out there these days and a lot of it is more interesting, more creative and, at the end of the day, simply catchier than Ogilala.

Off topic, but the new Marilyn Manson album is good. It lacks the grand concept of some of his earlier albums, but there are some excellent songs - Tattooed in Reverse is one of his best, in my opinion. And I have to hand it to him, although you can detect elements of 3 or 4 earlier albums within this new one, he never releases the same album twice.
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An Update on New Music from WPC 1 year 1 month ago #129506

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It would have looked like a demon to him, but actually aliens are more likely. Not to say that demons can't manifest in the physical plane, but Lizard Alien seems more plausible. lol. There's a zillion youtube conspiracy theory vids about the Lizard people and most of them are BS but I certainly believe it's possible.

BC's music problem is he keeps trying to appeal to the mainstream - or whatever he thinks the mainstream is in the current year - and he absolutely sucks at it. Mostly because the mainstream are after horribly bland, poorly constructed trash. Every new album release he's trying to reboot himself. He throws away the fans he has by making follow up records that don't follow the previous album in sequence.

Zeitgeist alienated some fans because it wasn't as good as Mellon Collie, and arguably it wasn't. It was a doom metal record with some new wave / experimental stuff tacked on at the end. His fanbase wanted a bigger production - piano, orchestration, multiple musicians working on songs rather than just him and Jimmy in the room. To an extent he covered some of that ground with Oceania. Unfortunately he also pissed off a lot of fans who LIKED Zeitgeist for what it was and was expecting a bigger and better follow up. Instead they got soft rock with synths.

I did a first track side by side anlaysis of each of his albums - from SD to Ogilala. You can tell so much just by listening to the first songs of albums. The Everlasting Gaze for me was enormous on the relisten - I think this is where he really got the Pumpkins right where they should have been post the 90s grunge era. Zeitgeist did rebuild on the ground covered by Machina, but it didn't have the same zillion dollar production behind it. It was far too depressing and nasty. Of course he could have continued on from that, but I think that post Zeitgeist is what I'd call Zombie Pumpkins. Like how they call Simpsons post Season 10 Zombie Simpsons.

I'll have to check out the Marilyn Manson album then. I have listened to 3 songs (not that one) and they haven't hit with me. Previous album was better I think. At least from this standpoint.

Perfect Circle has a new song which is cool

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An Update on New Music from WPC 1 year 1 month ago #129507

I think I pretty much agree with your views on SP/Billy's discography (well, at least how you summed it up there). I doubt he will ever release anything noteworthy again - certainly nothing of the standard of MCIS or Adore. Or even Zeitgeist. And I don't care about the style - I would happily listen to an acoustic album or an entirely synth album if it was good enough.

I don't think Heaven Upside Down is quite as good as the Pale Emperor, but it's still very good. It kinda mixes ACSS/GAOG/EMDM/PE and adds something new. Not my album of the year, but enjoyable.

I like that APC song too.
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An Update on New Music from WPC 1 year 1 month ago #129508

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I wouldn't write him off entirely - BC is one of the most talented musicians alive in my mind. He is capable of great music. His mindset about it though is totally wrong.

Like if you read the artical it says he quit Day For Night halfway through making the record. That is massively telling. And he didn't reconfigure the project and release say a few months later than schedule to make up the difference. He completely abandoned it. Which means not only was the music not resonating with him, the entire concept wasn't.

And I have to believe that it is because he's listening to it back and thinking - this album won't make me a superstar again. It's not the one, it'll get the same result as Monuments so what's the point??

And then he's in absolute crisis, calling up Rick Rubin as if Rubin's absence is responsible for Corgan's lack of success post 2000.

Rubin is like, hey - free money, and tells BC everything he wants to hear as they conspire a shit record together. DON may like it - but BC is not going to turn the tide with Ogalia when not even - NOT EVEN many 20+ year veteran fans think it's good. He wasn't making it for the fans of course, I only play for money, I don't give a fuck about the fans as the frogs would say.

Then you look at Steven Wilson who is also chasing the mainstream with To The Bone - but he's doing it in such a way that he doesn't piss off fans (minus Don) because the transition between the previous album is in sync and there is still plenty of fan service.

Ogilala? Who the fuck was waiting for that? That album will win over ZERO new fans. You know it's actually amazing how badly he's stuffed up post 2000. Like I feel like if I had BC and a hired band for a month I could make them make better music than we've heard from him in 15 years.
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An Update on New Music from WPC 1 year 1 month ago #129509

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Great discussion.

This is crazy Franky, everything you told about Billy's attempts to please the mainstream audience (which is a true thing, no doubt) could be 100% applied to To The Bone for me, as well.
It sounds like Wilson's most desperate and smarmy sellout.
To me, it's like Wilson finally lost his mind over still being partially underground after over 25 years of high quality progressive music and he gave it all up for this most sugary and bland mainstream album with songs only distantly echoing what he's truly capable of creating.
You have the songs emulating Stupid Dream in a boring way (Same Asylum, People Who Eat Darkness), the flat-out dull pop songs (Nowhere Now, Permanating), the horrendous Papa Rock with some SW toys in-between (To The Bone) and worst of all,, the forced pseudo-progress with little to none ideas applied to it and running length far beyond good and evil (Detonation).
I will agree on that SW has a way better understanding of what pleases the mainstream listener than Billy has; from what I understand, To The Bone sold insane amounts, so at least SW can now retire and laugh at all the idiots who only bought his worst album ever.

Billy, however, is another story, as he was cluelessly trying to find a way to make ends meet ever after Mellon Collie.
Yes, Adore and Machina very brilliant albums, but they didn't sell that good.
After that, like Franky said, it was over ever since.
Post-2000 Billy Corgan is a sad tale of cluelessness.
From the attempt to pretend a good feeling after SP disbanded with the stillborn child called ZWAN and their abysmal only album, over his first solo album, which was great but not bought by anyone but us and the doom metal affair that was Zeitgeist, which unfortunately only showcased a fraction of SPs musically capabilities and couldn't impress SP fans like me.
And then it got even worst with the Teargarden project, compromised by mediocre songs and a disconcerting way of releasing them.
The golden age SP-emulator Oceania was quite nice, but nothing they hadn't done before and better in the 90s and then there was the horrendous low-quality attempt of a mainstream album Monuments which no one wanted either.
Ogilala, at least for me, doesn't pretend to be anything but a bunch of basic songs Billy recently recorded and that's what I like about it (plus the songs are quite good and grow on you with each listen).
It doesn't pretend to be the Pumpkins, a rock album, the next Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band or a way to the secrets of the universe.
It's just a bunch of songs by a talented songwriter, and there's nothing wrong with that.

I listend to Heaven Upside Down a couple of times but I really wasn't impressed after the surprisingly great Pale Emperor.
Given, the lyrics are amusing enough, but musically it sounds like his 2017 re-recording of Antichrist Superstar to me, it's far too reminiscent of that for not being a blatant, 2nd rate ripoff.

Edit:
Given how massively large the universe is supposed to be, it would be insane to think there wouldn't be aliens somewhere.
But I really couldn't imagine technologically and socially advanced aliens being interested in humans or earth at all.
They'd definitely know better worlds with further advanced societies to go to.
I bet they'd rather fly by the earth and crack jokes about the primitive primates they just saw :D
Last Edit: 1 year 1 month ago by DON.
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An Update on New Music from WPC 1 year 1 month ago #129514

frankB wrote:
Just listened to the album start to finish.

Essentially BC's version of Let It Come Down.

I'm not going to compare it too much to SP music because that would be shortchanging it given he's using his solo name. However it can be fairly compared to The Future Embrace which absolutely SLAUGHTERS this album from start to finish.

I've kinda gotta agree with Frank here. I mean, the songwriting is still there and it's quite a strong effort in that sense. But I really, really, wish that there were one or two "edgier" songs on the album. And yeah, when Billy sings now he has this unfortunate habit of biting off the ends of words. Still, I've listened to the album a few times now, because of the die-hard pumpkins fan in me. But, to be honest, I'm enjoying Manson's new album much more than Billy's.
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