ThePumpkins.net

I want to know your opinion on this matter and what could have brought about this change. I agree that the emotive voice is largely absent from the songs as of late, sans live performances and Cottonwood. I'm interested in why you think the voice has gone so lifeless compared to the past - it certainly wasn't on Zwan or the solo album. What could have changed in such a small space of time to go from emotive to flat robot? I don't think it's because he doesn't care about what he is singing anymore - there are SP1 songs that are really quite meaningless where he is pouring his heart out. Is it really emotion, or just style? Pre 2005 Billy used whisper, whine, open voice, yell, and scream in cohesion with soft to loud volume, passing through multiple octaves. Cottonwood, as people will say is more emotional than is typical of TbK, incorporates this style to a degree. Zeitgeist uses plain open voice along different volumes in a single octave for basically the whole record. In other words, old Billy had much more of a dynamic and changing sound in a his singing and SP2 Billy has eliminated most of the elements from the old singing.

"blahblahblah get to the point" I think this lack of emotion that people are perceiving is just the style of singing getting dumbed down, being less dynamic than you'd expect. I think this problem can be fixed if Billy put more effort on making the vocals more varied rather than confined to the plain voice and octave; I don't think he involuntarily lost anything, but is making a style choice to make the vocals more basic. I do think this is a fixable problem and has nothing to do with "getting old" or not caring anymore. Hearing Owata, I am hearing the whisper and whine alongside the open voice, and have been saying these vocals are better than the past songs - a sentiment that is shared by others. I think if he only pushed it a little more, added the yell back and multiple octaves, people would stop complaining about the vocals.

So basically, post in this thread what you think is causing this and how it could be fixed, if at all. What do you define as "emotive" and what can be done about it?

Well, the fact his he still seems more emotive when singing live shows he hasn't really lost it. Maybe he is trying too hard to sound "perfect" in the studio, rather than just belting it out with feeling. Or maybe the sterile studio environment inhibits him somehow.

Maybe they should just start releasing high quality live recordings from now on...

I actually don't have a problem with his vocals...

Well, it's not like they're much worse than any random vocalist. But, in my opinion, he used to have the best vocals of any singer - by quite a long way. I'm thinking the MCIS and Adore era specifically.

This might sound bad, but I never really cared for his vocals in particular. They're good ... and unique ... but I think most of the other artists I listen to have stronger vocals. But not stronger music, obviously.

I doubt anyone will ever top Billy's MCIS/Adore vocals for me. And SD he was very good too. I'm not interested in singers hitting the right notes. I just want it to sound like they care about what they're singing about. And I've never heard any as powerful as Billy's from that time.

That's the first time I've heard someone call MCIS better than SD vocally, that is a very interesting perception

Have you ever heard Something For Kate? Paul Dempsy is one of my favorite vocalists.

That was a vey good song, I may have to check out this paul dempsy in future

Billy's vocals have gone through many different phases as I have noticed. With Gish he's beginning to develop the early whisper and whining styles but it's mostly just straightforward vocals. With Siamese Dream I think his vocals started to become more dynamic and he had more of the whispers/whines/yells and so forth. Then, MCIS is where he really started to branch out and solidify the definitive Billy vocals, they were looser and more free-form compared to SD (maybe in part because of the Butch Vig to Flood change) and there were more screams and whines and etc.
Then with Adore the vocals are more reformed/reclusive and quite, the gentle melodies seemed very carefully planned out and more Siamese Dream-like. With Machina was a pretty massive change, the vocals were much, much whinier and had a darker, more sinister tone; they sounded a little older and more confident.(If you look at the first performance of CASH CAR STAR in 1997/98 you can see the difference from the later live versions/studio version). The Machina/Machina II vocals were personally my favorite.
With Zwan it had that older characteristic from Machina but without the signature whine, I can't quite describe how his vocals took on that older sounding feel after Adore. After Zwan (2005-08)his vocals became strangely more hollow and tired sounding, high notes seemed to strain his voice more than before and his whine has much less sharp. I think he's been able to get to those higher levels again and his vocals sound much better than on Zeitgeist but I agree they do have a little less emotion than before. As Rome Burns and the Viper Room version of U.S. are a good indication that he can still belt it when he wants to though.

Wow, that's a great song too. I definitely need to check this band out... theyre tacked into my queue now, thanks Frank!

EDIT: And thanks for that response Teargesit, that's what I was looking for. Great analysis there Cool you would mention the Viper Room, that would be one of my prime examples too

No problem man. Also, if you really are curious about why his vocals don't have that same emotion than I think looking at the lyrical content is also a good place to get an answer. Can you imagine Rotten Apples-esque vocals on 'A Stitch In Time'? It wouldn't really sound right, you can't really have heart-wrenching vocals to songs about sunshines and happy thoughts, which is what seems to be Billy's prime new inspiration. At it's core, i think it comes down to the fact that Billy isn't an angry/depressed rock-star anymore, and if he still was at this age he probably would have killed himself by now haha. He's an aging man who isn't looking to be angry and depressed anymore, he just wants to be happy and make good music at the same time.

teargesit wrote:
He's halfway there then.



Just kidding!

Casey Chaos is one of my favourite vocalists. Although I'm not sure if he's still alive. (doesn't seem to be the best audio quality on this video, but I suppose it'll give you an idea...)

I don't think you you have to be sad/depressed/angry to have effecting vocals, although those can usually be more powerful. There is always the cool/dreamy type that Billy did so well on Glynis and Apathy's Last Kiss that employs the whisper, whine and yell. I just really want less of the open voice, the whisper was always my favorite facet of Billy vocals

Yeah, I agree. Billy's whole range of vocals from SD through to Adore was great - a lot of the songs were quite "depressing" I suppose, but not all of them. Apathy's Last Kiss is a very good example actually.

Sikamikanico999 wrote: I think SD has the worst vocals of the original SP's albums.
Too shiny and produced.
I do also prefer the singing on MCIS, Adore and MACHINA.
His studio singing has lost it a lot, I think.
I agree on that but the bad songs are to blame, too.
How much emotion could you put in a song about Jesus on white unicorns across the rainbow of everlasting happiness that you give away for free ?

DON wrote:
That's true - part of the problem probably is that he doesn't have anything that he really wants to say anymore - he even said a while ago that he was struggling to come up with lyrics for new songs. I suppose if you're just writing lyrics for the sake of it, it would be hard to sing them with passion.

Having said that, the live versions of Song For A Son seemed vocally a lot better than the studio version.

Discussing vocals, I maybe should come up with my DIY Billy Corgan album called "Lost in the woods" compiling very well-sung live-only tracks and studio outtakes that never saw any album.
After reading thru this, I've put it in.
It has a warm, gentle, calm and beautiful flow.
You should give it a try.

Here's the tracklist:

1. Prairie Song (ZWAN / Hideout)
2. Freedom Ain't What It Used To Be (ZWAN / Soul Machines)
3. Once In A While (SP / Adore B-Side)
4. How Things Are (ZWAN / Live-only)
5. Lost In The Woods (BC / Live-only)
6. Methusela (SP / MCIS Outtake)
7. Friends & Lovers (ZWAN / Live-only)
8. Here I Am (SP / MACHINA acoustic demo)
9. Do you close your eyes (Adore Outtake)
10.El-A-Noy (ZWAN / Live-only)
11.Satellites (SP / Adore Outtake)